flavorchemist: (гмо)
[personal profile] flavorchemist

Картинка из знаковой работы.

На картинке изображено, сколько людей в каждой стране согласны на посмертное донорство органов. Как можно видеть, уровень серьезно отличается в разных странах, и эти различия объяснить не очень легко. Как объяснить почти 100% в Австрии и 12% у ее соседки Германии. Неужели в Германии живут такие злобные и жадные люди, что им даже после смерти себя жалко? Почему такие похожие Бельгия и Нидерланды так отличаются?

Почему в США данные опросов говорят о том, что 85% согласны быть донорами, а данные статистики - что только 28% ими потенциально являются. Или статистика врет?

Авторы работы проводят простой эксперимент.

Набрали участников. Предложили им легенду - они только-только сменили страну, и им, по правилам, надо было решить, станут они донорами органов или нет. Случайным образом распределив людей на 3 группы, попросили заполнить анкеты.

Анкеты были трех видов:

В первой, учасник по умолчанию не был донором, и, чтобы стать им нужно было отметить галочку напротив "я согласен"
Во второй, наборот, по умолчанию все считались донорами, и чтобы выйти из программы нужно было отметить "я не согласен"
В третьей - нужно было сделать явный выбор между "согласен" и "не согласен"

Казалось бы, много ли надо усилий, просто щелкнуть мышкой в нужном окошке.

Много. Резульаты показывают, что очень много. Слишком много.



Отметить галочку "я согласен" оказалось в 2 раза сложнее, чем  не отметить "я не согласен". Причем, результаты третьей анкеты, явного и осознанного выбора, совпали с теми, когда опцией "умолчанию" являлось участие в программе.

И это просто поставить галочку. А теперь представьте, что для проставления этой галочки нужно переться в поликлинику или, не доведись, в российскую нотариальную контору? Разница будет еще сильнее.

Разгадка первой картинки именно в этом эксперименте. В странах, в которых высокий % доноров, все по умолчанию записываются в доноры. В странах, где низкий - нет. Никакие бешеные бюджеты на социальную рекламу и поддержка со стороны религиозных организаций никогда не позволят им добраться до уровня их соседей.

Выводы работы были неоднократно подтверждены в последствии - значение "по умолчанию" действительно определяет исход программы намного больше, чем даже желание людей. Мы так устроены. Столкнувшись с таким простым и сложным одновременно вопросом, мы просто не хотим принимать никакого решения. Думаю, каждый из нас сталкивался с такой ситуацией, когда мы пускаем важное дело на самотек, боясь принять то или иное решение. Но проблема в том, что в этом случае решение все равно кто-то принимает. Вместо нас.

В таком деле, как медицина, спасение жизней, очень важно, какое именно решение будет принято, и кто его примет.

Минздрав все правильно делает с презумпцией согласия, не ограничив ни на секунду права желающих выйти из этого соглашения "по умолчанию". А насчет Чаплина и прочих, защищающих права мертвых людей больше, чем живых, каждый сделает свой вывод сам.

UPDATE Неожиданно много появилось людей, которые, в связи с введением нового закона начали опасаться "разборки на органы" по заказу. Раньше надо было бояться. Презумпция согласия работает с 1992 года,  и всех давно уже разбирают. Новый закон, предполагает упорядочивание процедур и ведение реестра несогласных. Что в целом является шагом к соблюдению прав человека, а вовсе не нарушению. Минздрав делает все правильно, не отказываясь от презумпции согласия, но вводя организационный порядок. Спасибо [livejournal.com profile] dzz за замечания.

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Date: 2013-06-15 11:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ahitech.livejournal.com
каждый из нас сталкивался с такой ситуацией, когда мы пускаем важное дело на самотек, боясь принять то или иное решение.

Ну, это известный факт: если ты не знаешь, что делать, не делай ничего. Либо проблему решат за тебя, либо правильное решение станет очевидно. Целые бизнес-стратегии основываются на этом правиле.

Что касается лично меня, то я не собираюсь разрешать кому-то пользоваться моими органами после моей смерти. «Всё своё ношу с собой».

Date: 2013-06-15 12:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] edroovna.livejournal.com
Но ведь можно будет воспользоваться Вашими органами не ставя Вас в известность. Об этом не задумывались? А Вы подумайте.

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Date: 2013-06-15 12:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] znour.livejournal.com
Мертвые солдаты Российской армии, которых убивают в Бикинском гарнизон и разбирают на органты, возвращяя оставшееся мясо родным, на том свете объяснят Вам, где Вы серьезно ошибаетесь.

Date: 2013-06-15 12:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ru-watcher.livejournal.com
Того света не существует.

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Date: 2013-06-15 12:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hist-kai.livejournal.com
Я не религиозен. Но тут дело не в защите права мертвого человека перед живым, а в защите права человека на свое тело. Ущемляя право человека на распоряжение своим телом, мы ущемляем права всех людей, низводя их до уровня скота, принадлежащего обществу.

Разумеется, отказ от трансплантации частично решает эту проблему, но... как вы сами отметили - это же надо переться в поликлинику, что-то и где-то там нотариально заверять.

Кроме того, если уж быть совсем честными, то нужно не просто бинарное согласие, а, как минимум, согласие на продажу органов в пользу наследников. А что, органы - такая же собственность, как и все остальное.

Для лучшего понимания ситуации представьте, что закон о наследовании поменяется так, что по-умолчанию все имущество человека будет направляться, скажем, на благотворительность. А вот если кто-то хочет что-то оставить родным и близким - то пусть пишет завещание. Как вам это понравится?

Date: 2013-06-15 12:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] khathi.livejournal.com
Разумеется, отказ от трансплантации частично решает эту проблему, но... как вы сами отметили - это же надо переться в поликлинику, что-то и где-то там нотариально заверять.
В этом-то и вопрос. Если вы РЕАЛЬНО убеждены в своём жгучем нежелании отдавать свои органы кому-то — извольте отвечать за свои убеждения и таки «попереться в поликлинику», небось не отвалится ничего. Не хотите переться — значит так убеждены.

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Date: 2013-06-15 12:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aleksei-borisov.livejournal.com
К такому прекрасному закону неплохо бы иметь в комплекте всю исправную законодательную систему.
Начиная от охраны личных медицинских данных.
А то есть подозрение, что закон о пересадке органов работать будет работать очень чётко, причём точечно, по спец-заказу.
Кого надо, того и разберут на органы.
Edited Date: 2013-06-15 12:05 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-06-15 12:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nataein.livejournal.com
Вот и у меня есть такое подозрение. Правда и сейчас кого надо разделают.

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Date: 2013-06-15 12:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kiiskinen.livejournal.com
Если такой закон примут, то в больницу луче не попадать. Будут не лечить, а потрошить на органы и продавать "нашим западным партнёрам"...(

Date: 2013-06-15 12:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] khathi.livejournal.com

Их уст в уста передаются слухи
О частых похищениях людей,
Им отрезают зверски ноги, руки,
И продают на органы быстрей!
Врачи больных садистски убивают...
И все радиостанции орут:
Маньяков из психушек отпускают,
Нормальных нет уже ни там, ни тут!


©The Беломорс, «Фрагменты тел», «Кровавые будни» 2002

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Date: 2013-06-15 12:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wasserstrahl.livejournal.com
Подход совершенно корректен для "страны эльфов" с нормальной государственной системой, но для пост-СССР возникает уж слишком много опасений, камрады выше там изложили.

Date: 2013-06-15 01:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] flavorchemist.livejournal.com
Есть такие опасения. Но есть хороший ответ

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Date: 2013-06-15 12:12 pm (UTC)
etoile_verte: (yasen)
From: [personal profile] etoile_verte
Ещё лет семь назад брат рассказывал мне про аналогичные результаты в ситуации, когда по контракту работники могли отчислять часть своей зарплаты в пенсионный фонд (помимо налога).
Не ставить галочку всегда проще, чем ставить галочку, и это правильно. Я бы сказала ещё, что нефиг напрягать людей, когда в этом нет никакого смысла, а также требовать от них активной позиции по сотне вопросов.

Date: 2013-06-15 01:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] flavorchemist.livejournal.com
Считается, что это важный вопрос, во и напрягают))

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Date: 2013-06-15 12:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lev-evgenevi4.livejournal.com
Только вот (глядя на повседневные тенденции) - этот законопроект госдура будет долго обсуждать и отклонит. В отличие от остальных.

И заодно будет повод сказать "Как это "ничего не отклоняем"? Вот, отклонили".

Date: 2013-06-15 01:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] flavorchemist.livejournal.com
Это будет по-нашему

Date: 2013-06-15 12:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] intatin.livejournal.com
На нашей почве такой подход потенциально опасен для пациентов.

Date: 2013-06-15 01:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] flavorchemist.livejournal.com
Любой подход опасен для пациентов. Вообще любой, всегда есть плюсы и минусы. Вопрос в том, что опаснее.

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From: [identity profile] tezzereth57.livejournal.com - Date: 2013-06-15 09:28 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2013-06-15 12:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] edroovna.livejournal.com
Интересно, а куда деваются всякие удаленные органы типа аппендиксов, зубов, ампутированных конечностей и прочего уже не нужного в хозяйстве материала? Кого-нибудь это интересует?

Date: 2013-06-15 12:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyrates.livejournal.com
Утилизируются путём сжигания. Предлагаете их кому-нибудь пришивать?

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Date: 2013-06-15 12:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ilets.livejournal.com
В Голландии присылают по почте запрос-анкету. Первый раз я ее выкинула, а на второй раз заполнила и подписалась практически на все виды донорства. Муж поленился и выкинул и второй раз. Больше ему не приходило, а искать самостоятельно лень. Вывод в исследованиях очень похож на правду.

Date: 2013-06-15 01:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cskamsk.livejournal.com
Не верю, что 2 человека из тысячи отказались быть донорами в Австрии, при том что в Германии показатель чуть ли не наоборот. То есть условно говоря, никакого нормального распределения среди респондентов нет
Либо липа галимая, либо я ничего не понимаю

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Date: 2013-06-15 12:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] trueblacker.livejournal.com
вроде по ссылке Чаплин всё правильно сказал же

Date: 2013-06-15 12:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shootenok.livejournal.com
Остаётся надеяться, что в анкетах по умолчанию будет отмечено «после смерти» :D

Date: 2013-06-15 01:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] flavorchemist.livejournal.com
Разумеется)
Закон я читал, на всякий случай. Все вроде логично написано.

Date: 2013-06-15 12:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shootenok.livejournal.com
А вообще, куда проще и приятнее всю жизнь пить и курить, чем где-то там ставить какую-то там галочку «не согласен на использование моих органов»!

Date: 2013-06-15 12:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-toad.livejournal.com
Хехехе, а я намерен путём курения и пьянства довести свои органы до такого состояния, что на них ни один дурак не покусится! (и немедленно налил)

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Date: 2013-06-15 12:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dr-blastarr.livejournal.com
"По умолчанию" означает "как все", обычно это наиболее оптимальный вариант поведения.

А в России многие отказались бы стать донором из опасений быть убитым ради органов. Соответствующие фильмы по ТВ показывали.

Date: 2013-06-15 01:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] flavorchemist.livejournal.com
Пусть отказываются, это их право. Даже морально возразить нечего. Это действительно право каждого человека. Но откажутся от силы 10%. И согласятся, если наоборот, тоже не более.

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Date: 2013-06-15 01:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tcmfan.livejournal.com
Я про это читал в книжке "Thinking, fast and slow"

Date: 2013-06-15 01:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] flavorchemist.livejournal.com
Ну, Америку я здесь не открыл. Достаточно известный факт.

Date: 2013-06-15 01:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] svetsweet.livejournal.com
Во всех смыслах надо жить за свой счет, а не за счет другого человека. Рассчитывать надо на себя, а не на чужие органы.

Date: 2013-06-15 01:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] flavorchemist.livejournal.com
Знаете, человек существо не просто стадное, а социальное. И вот это самое "рассчитывать на себя" хорошо только в тундре, и то, когда один. А общество только так и живет, когда все рассчитывают на остальных. И по другому не может.

Очень рекомендую в этом смысле Вам в принципе не рассчитывать на ЖКХ, медицину, полицию, школу....

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Date: 2013-06-15 01:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aosypov.livejournal.com
Спасибо большое! Прекрасный материал.

Date: 2013-06-15 01:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] flavorchemist.livejournal.com
Спасибо.

Date: 2013-06-15 01:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] azatamir.livejournal.com
Неплохо было бы помогать пересадкой органов только тем, кто сам согласен быть донором

Date: 2013-06-15 03:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ahitech.livejournal.com
Это невозможно, я выше объяснил, почему.

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Date: 2013-06-15 01:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nlothik.livejournal.com
В США согласие на донорство оформляется при получении водительских прав. Просто и сердито, и практически 100% охват населения старше 16 :)

Я донор, если что.

Date: 2013-06-15 08:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jafota.livejournal.com
Вот правильно. А мотоциклистов надо вообще автоматически зачислять в почётные доноры, онибчастенько за секунду превращаются в суповойнабор органов.

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Date: 2013-06-15 01:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] svetsweet.livejournal.com
К сведению халявщика flavorchemist : " ЖКХ, медицина, полиция, школа" - существуют на МОИ ДЕНЬГИ!
А паразитируют на трудовом народе такие как flavorchemist , вечно рассчитывающие на чужое!

Date: 2013-06-15 02:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] serpion.livejournal.com
Не хочу Вас расстраивать... но Вы не правы :) Ваши деньги/налоги доходят процентов на 20-30. Все остальное воруется. И тут даже сказать "я даю, а то что не воруется это не мои проблемы" не получится, поскольку власть это тоже в сфере вашей ответственности в том числе :)

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Date: 2013-06-15 01:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zambor.livejournal.com
В рашке очереди будут выстраиваться чтобы отказ написать. И правильно - тех кто по умолчанию "согласен" будут при первой же возможности добивать и пускать на органы.

Date: 2013-06-15 01:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nfrcf.livejournal.com
Опять, опять поведенческая экономика! И вот Вы здесь и показали конкретный эффект от решения вопроса. Не-не, я не про то, "за" кого Вы или "против" кого. Просто формулировка проблемы таким образом, что ясно видно - вот это есть реальная отдача. То, что комментаторы рассуждают в поле "хочу/не хочу", это то самое психологическое сопровождение, основа, на которой принимается экономическое решение.

*Хороший пример, надо будет использовать в лекции.

Date: 2013-06-15 02:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] flavorchemist.livejournal.com
Я очень увлекся этой самой поведенческой экономикой. Вообще, даже удивлен, как много в этой области наработано и как много есть уже готовых решений. И как упорно многие (те, кто должен замечать) не замечают этого, и все равно изобретают велосипеды, которые не едут.

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Date: 2013-06-15 02:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] константин луценко (from livejournal.com)
в свете глобальной глутамизации и гемонизма -тема оченнь октуальна..
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